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foreign

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[Music]

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your host I'm back in Maine as you see

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my place a little messy but anyway uh

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I'm glad to be here again

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and uh last week we were off because uh

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uh the guests that I had planned was a

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little evasive I couldn't get a hold of

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her and so I just felt it was better to

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run the uh a rerun of Dr Leo sprinkle

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um I thought that was a good a good show

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to run that would aired first back in

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2015. if you haven't heard that yet it's

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a interesting one uh some things seem a

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little out there for some people but he

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was quite an amazing researcher and a

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great guy and uh so in this case we

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missed a couple of blogs by Charles Lear

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um the last week's one was UFOs over the

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Indian Point Nuclear Plant

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um that happened back in on at New

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Year's Eve back in 1982 and the uh the

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blog this week truckers report uh

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attacked by birdlight creatures from a

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UFO and this was actually 1984. uh

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Charles goes back and takes a really

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good look at some very interesting cases

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tonight we have Ben Hansen and Tony

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angiello uh they are going to be talking

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about the Lonnie Lonnie Zamora incident

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some people call it that a lot of people

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call it that the Socorro incident and uh

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let's see the government was involved

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CIA FBI the military it's never been

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debunked uh Ronnie zamor Lonnie Zamora

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was the number one reason uh because

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you're such a solid guy such a solid

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witness we're going to go over that case

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uh one of the top cases and it's the

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case that uh Alan heineck decided that

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maybe there was really something to this

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UFO thing that's the one that turned him

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from being a total skeptic to someone

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that people could count on for years to

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take a good look at what was happening

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I'm going to bring our guests in now

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hello guys

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hey I'm Ben Moss and I've been Hansen

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but uh I was honest I call you Ben

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Hanson yeah that's all right that's

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because I said I'm so sorry

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well uh yeah I don't know we were just

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talking about him all right I just

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mentioned his name before the off off

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air I'm really sorry about that but uh

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anyway you could almost body double for

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him though you look a little bit like

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first season seventh episode about

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Socorro so uh anybody that has that I

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think Ben Hansen made you look like a

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UFO witness he's six five I'm six

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two but uh yeah UFO witness first season

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episode seven at Socorro in there yeah

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so where are you guys are you in

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Virginia now that's

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yeah yeah and uh I want to thank you so

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much for coming on we met a number of

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times once that Ray Stanford's house and

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uh I think we met twice at a conference

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yeah we met at two different conferences

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one in Cherry Hill and one uh out in

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Phoenix but anyway always it was always

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a lot of fun hanging out with you guys

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but I knew right from the beginning when

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we uh talked to the very first time you

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had an interest in the Socorro case and

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really you know chasing it down and uh I

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believe the very first time we met you

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had just stopped by Socorro uh New

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Mexico which was I don't know how many

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hours away from Phoenix but uh oh what

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happened oh it was kind of blurry to me

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so I was trying to clean my room sorry

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all right all right so let's talk about

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first of all uh I have a lot of new

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people on the show listening so let's

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talk about first who you both are and

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how you got interested in the case and

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well and then I want to hear uh for the

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again for the new people and I'd like to

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hear what happened that night in April

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of 1964.

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I'm at Ben on a chance meeting a

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business meeting as a matter of fact and

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we got to talking about UFOs and uh even

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though I was already a member of mufon

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at the time since uh the mid 90s and I

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was also an investigator that hadn't

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really done too much Ben was actively

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involved as a chief field investigator

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for Virginia so he got me pulled back in

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to move on I became the assistant state

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director and we started doing cases

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together we stumbled upon the Sakura

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Case

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by listening to James Fox at a 2015

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Cherry Hill 2014 Cherry Hill conference

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which uh send us into this interesting

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rabbit hole that is the Socorro Landing

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in 1964. the one you were at

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yeah yeah yeah that we have that photo

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with um gosh me van Hansen you uh Tony

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Cataldo James Fox and um

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in our directory uh

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um

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it's been so long but yeah yeah that's

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what started the journey was there

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um

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so I'm similar I have been in the UFOs

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all my life and uh

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was investigated for move on Chief field

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investigator from Buffon and then uh you

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know we have we've formed the UFO guys

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LLC so on Facebook with the UFO guys we

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post uh what we think are real videos of

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something anomalous up there and uh we

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got started uh James Fox had mentioned

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uh

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Socorro and showed that clip with Ray

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Stanford in it and then we promised we'd

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find this footage and then we went on a

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journey to find this footage of this uh

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passenger who had been going through

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Socorro New Mexico at the time and was

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went to the site right after the landing

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of the craft in Socorro New Mexico in

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1964. so that started the whole process

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and uh wow it's been seven eight years

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nine years now that took a lot of

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research five years of writing and and

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three visits to Socorro to write that

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thing

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and uh what was your your purpose in

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general for you know Ray Stanford has

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the uh

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the go-to book uh that everyone knows

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but it it was only had one printing is

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that one of the reasons you we wrote the

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well we just happened to be working uh

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on a lot of different angles with the

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case and by visiting uh we got to

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interview a lot of interesting people

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those that who knew Ray very closely

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others who didn't uh those there's a lot

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of cases that had some speculation but

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interesting nonetheless and we

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incorporated a lot of that into the book

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with also the you know backing it up

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saying that this is just hearsay but

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other evidence that we have has a lot of

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backing Beyond it part of it yeah part

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of it was I ran across I won't mention

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any names I'm trying to be nicer as I

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get older but part of it was a Blog and

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a site that got a lot of views about a

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guy that proved that this whole thing

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was a hoax and and gave the most

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ludicrous statements I you know just and

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I actually talked to the person through

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uh email I think we had a phone call but

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you know when I talked to them he

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admitted he had never been to this site

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he didn't even know anything about the

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site he uh didn't know anything about

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the terrain so he was telling me it was

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a balloon being turned by a car you know

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in the desert with all these rocks and

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Hills that you couldn't drive a car more

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than four feet from the site but uh and

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so when I started seeing

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that history was changing the tenure and

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people going wow wasn't that a balloon

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um as we dug into it I was like let's

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let's see if it was a balloon and the

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further we dug and and Ray helped us Ray

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helped write a chapter in the book about

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the symbol and contributed information

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it was a continuation to raise the book

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basically updating the Rob Mercer's

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files that he found on oh yeah God bless

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that came from Project Blue Book it was

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280 pages of Socorro information so we

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have a lot of new stuff that Ray hadn't

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seen before so it updated everything and

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I think part of the thing that really

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made it hit home when we were trying to

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figure out what it was was all the

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newspaper articles through this time

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frame in the general area that were

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egg-shaped crafts cited by military

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several at Holloman and White Sands Air

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Force Base cited by military personnel

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um just a lot of egg shaped crafts in

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the area in this time frame this wasn't

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a one-off and then you had La Madeira

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also where where it seemed like the same

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thing happened just didn't have time to

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investigate that also it's hard to

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investigate a case that that's that old

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right yes and I know the symbol was

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something that was obscured purposely

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um just to be able to uh go back to it

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if someone said they saw something and

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they said yeah I had this symbol or that

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symbol but I mean you have the hats uh

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with the with uh the supposed real

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simple on it and but everyone seems to

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get that wrong whenever you see it on

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like Unsolved Mysteries or something

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like that they have the original

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simple that Lonnie Zamora was supposed

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to you know say or let out there right

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the umbrella yeah you know it's

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interesting because that symbol could

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have just been temporary on the side of

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the craft it could have been like an

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iPhone you know you have the screen

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blank versus having something come on it

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it's very possible that whatever

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Insignia was on that craft it went away

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just like a screen just turn the light

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off

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which is why when you see or hear about

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reported ex-shaped craft you generally

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don't hear about anything like a symbol

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being on it very very rare maybe it's

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very it's so rare that it could be like

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I said some sort of distress to alert

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others hey I'm over here I need help

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uh we're not just parked and we're

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broken down but credit you're a uh Ray

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Stanford you know when he was in touch

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with uh Captain holder's son the captain

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holder was the up-range white sand

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Commander from White Sands who came down

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investigated the case right away and his

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son told Ray he said yeah my father told

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me that they had Lonnie sign of symbol

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they kind of made up on the spot that

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way if anybody reported that symbol they

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knew they were making it up because the

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real symbol wasn't inverted me with

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three bars and we got new a couple of

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witnesses that Ray had never talked to

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or or never taught before that met with

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Lonnie and and you know drew things and

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Lonnie would kind of point to something

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it was always the three uh bars with the

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inverted V was the symbol that Lonnie

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really saw on the crowd but he was told

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not to say anything you know I was

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thinking about the symbol

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so this all started Let's uh let's go

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through the case for those who have not

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heard it before it all started in in

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April well I forget the date of 1964

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with a high-speed chase of a convertible

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let's go through the whole thing so

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police officer Lonnie Zamora was on

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random patrol on April 24th and that

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means that uh there's no designated

272
00:12:28,069 --> 00:12:26,279
place to really park or be nobody would

273
00:12:31,550 --> 00:12:28,079
know exactly where he's at or know his

274
00:12:33,769 --> 00:12:31,560
schedule he sees a speeder go by and he

275
00:12:36,170 --> 00:12:33,779
recognizes the gentleman he's a younger

276
00:12:39,230 --> 00:12:36,180
man and he's he's known to speed through

277
00:12:42,590 --> 00:12:39,240
town so Lonnie goes after him uh while

278
00:12:45,530 --> 00:12:42,600
he's in Pursuit and near the gas station

279
00:12:48,710 --> 00:12:45,540
um where another family was coming uh

280
00:12:50,870 --> 00:12:48,720
with four people in the car uh Lonnie

281
00:12:53,930 --> 00:12:50,880
lets the speeder go and what he sees in

282
00:12:55,730 --> 00:12:53,940
the sky crossing the road is this thing

283
00:12:57,170 --> 00:12:55,740
that seems to have Flames coming out of

284
00:12:59,449 --> 00:12:57,180
it and he thinks it might be an airplane

285
00:13:02,030 --> 00:12:59,459
coming down and he knows there's a

286
00:13:03,590 --> 00:13:02,040
dynamite shock over over where the

287
00:13:06,470 --> 00:13:03,600
direction that he sees it going so he

288
00:13:08,930 --> 00:13:06,480
takes his brand new police car off-road

289
00:13:11,389 --> 00:13:08,940
and really has to gun it up this hill

290
00:13:13,670 --> 00:13:11,399
and cause damage to the vehicle just to

291
00:13:15,829 --> 00:13:13,680
get up there once he reaches the top

292
00:13:19,430 --> 00:13:15,839
from about no more than like 100 feet

293
00:13:21,050 --> 00:13:19,440
away you can see there's two figures in

294
00:13:23,810 --> 00:13:21,060
white and what he describes as white

295
00:13:27,170 --> 00:13:23,820
coveralls and he knows how tall the bush

296
00:13:30,170 --> 00:13:27,180
that they're standing next to us so he

297
00:13:31,750 --> 00:13:30,180
can tell approximate how high the heads

298
00:13:35,329 --> 00:13:31,760
of these figures would be

299
00:13:38,449 --> 00:13:35,339
then he continues to move towards that

300
00:13:41,150 --> 00:13:38,459
object and he loses sight for him for

301
00:13:43,370 --> 00:13:41,160
just a moment and as his car dips down

302
00:13:47,509 --> 00:13:43,380
and comes back up to this Ravine this

303
00:13:50,569 --> 00:13:47,519
Arroyo he's no further than about 30

304
00:13:54,290 --> 00:13:50,579
feet and he gets as close as possibly 15

305
00:13:57,170 --> 00:13:54,300
to 20 feet from the vehicle which is

306
00:13:59,210 --> 00:13:57,180
um juxtaposed to what's written in the

307
00:14:00,829 --> 00:13:59,220
Air Force report and there they were

308
00:14:03,470 --> 00:14:00,839
trying to say that he was like 300 feet

309
00:14:07,190 --> 00:14:03,480
150 feet of the closest and that's not

310
00:14:09,350 --> 00:14:07,200
necessarily true he's much closer so he

311
00:14:11,750 --> 00:14:09,360
when he actually gets out of his car he

312
00:14:14,210 --> 00:14:11,760
can hear a door slamming shut that he

313
00:14:17,629 --> 00:14:14,220
describes it kind of like a submarine

314
00:14:19,970 --> 00:14:17,639
hatch shutting and then locking and then

315
00:14:23,509 --> 00:14:19,980
the Flames Begin to come from underneath

316
00:14:25,970 --> 00:14:23,519
the vehicle again slicing a bush in half

317
00:14:27,530 --> 00:14:25,980
and then it raises an elevation into

318
00:14:29,930 --> 00:14:27,540
something about what the vehicle looked

319
00:14:31,930 --> 00:14:29,940
like eggshelled craft he said we

320
00:14:34,490 --> 00:14:31,940
established that

321
00:14:36,050 --> 00:14:34,500
and also the action craft that was kind

322
00:14:38,810 --> 00:14:36,060
of tilted forward like you know you

323
00:14:41,210 --> 00:14:38,820
expect a symmetric vehicle to be level

324
00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:41,220
and it seemed like the front of it was

325
00:14:45,490 --> 00:14:43,680
tilted down like it's bowing down there

326
00:14:48,470 --> 00:14:45,500
you go

327
00:14:49,610 --> 00:14:48,480
and uh so immediately I'm thinking to

328
00:14:51,530 --> 00:14:49,620
myself well there must be something

329
00:14:53,930 --> 00:14:51,540
wrong with the thing

330
00:14:56,689 --> 00:14:53,940
um not to mention that the the people in

331
00:14:58,490 --> 00:14:56,699
the car said that this object nearly

332
00:15:01,189 --> 00:14:58,500
took their antenna off because they were

333
00:15:03,769 --> 00:15:01,199
making comments to the owner of the gas

334
00:15:07,610 --> 00:15:03,779
station that their airplanes fly

335
00:15:09,110 --> 00:15:07,620
extremely low and this is yeah and

336
00:15:11,689 --> 00:15:09,120
nobody's ever been able to chase those

337
00:15:13,790 --> 00:15:11,699
people down right that's right yeah

338
00:15:16,730 --> 00:15:13,800
they've never come forward in another

339
00:15:18,350 --> 00:15:16,740
situation ever talked about it it's

340
00:15:20,629 --> 00:15:18,360
probably you know if you weren't that

341
00:15:22,670 --> 00:15:20,639
interested at the time and you just

342
00:15:24,769 --> 00:15:22,680
didn't see the headline because it went

343
00:15:26,870 --> 00:15:24,779
around the world headline but if you

344
00:15:28,850 --> 00:15:26,880
weren't in UFOs and you just thought it

345
00:15:30,590 --> 00:15:28,860
was something weird you might not have

346
00:15:33,290 --> 00:15:30,600
heard about the story for 20 years you

347
00:15:37,670 --> 00:15:33,300
know until somebody came up again but

348
00:15:39,410 --> 00:15:37,680
yeah so it's just the thing is that when

349
00:15:41,269 --> 00:15:39,420
we looked into it and we were trying to

350
00:15:42,970 --> 00:15:41,279
figure out you know you look for any

351
00:15:45,710 --> 00:15:42,980
plausible explanation for what happened

352
00:15:48,230 --> 00:15:45,720
and basically eliminated everything and

353
00:15:50,329 --> 00:15:48,240
the fact that the Project Blue Book in

354
00:15:53,689 --> 00:15:50,339
the Air Force still has it as an unknown

355
00:15:56,090 --> 00:15:53,699
is the is the answer to the case it's an

356
00:15:58,069 --> 00:15:56,100
unknown but you know Captain holder was

357
00:15:59,750 --> 00:15:58,079
an up range White Sands Commander he

358
00:16:02,090 --> 00:15:59,760
knew all the black projects he knew

359
00:16:04,009 --> 00:16:02,100
everything that flew the radar wasn't

360
00:16:07,009 --> 00:16:04,019
turned on at the time even but nothing

361
00:16:08,870 --> 00:16:07,019
was flying that evening it was a Brisk

362
00:16:11,870 --> 00:16:08,880
45 mile an hour wind

363
00:16:14,870 --> 00:16:11,880
in the desert at about 5 45 the night

364
00:16:17,210 --> 00:16:14,880
that this object flew into and so you

365
00:16:19,009 --> 00:16:17,220
know we actually talked to the balloon

366
00:16:21,530 --> 00:16:19,019
the national headquarters for

367
00:16:23,810 --> 00:16:21,540
balloonists in Albuquerque and they said

368
00:16:26,870 --> 00:16:23,820
nobody would ever take off at that time

369
00:16:28,250 --> 00:16:26,880
of day into that type of weather in a

370
00:16:31,610 --> 00:16:28,260
balloon because it would you know

371
00:16:34,910 --> 00:16:31,620
wouldn't go well and so um you know as

372
00:16:37,009 --> 00:16:34,920
far as breaking down the the hoaxes it

373
00:16:39,530 --> 00:16:37,019
got to the point where if you just kind

374
00:16:41,449 --> 00:16:39,540
of look deeply into the case you realize

375
00:16:45,050 --> 00:16:41,459
that it couldn't be these these things

376
00:16:46,550 --> 00:16:45,060
like a hoax or a tin can or fireworks or

377
00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:46,560
you know something along and also each

378
00:16:51,290 --> 00:16:49,440
time we visited we were we felt that we

379
00:16:54,470 --> 00:16:51,300
were there during very similar

380
00:16:57,949 --> 00:16:54,480
conditions the wind was very consistent

381
00:17:00,710 --> 00:16:57,959
it was very strong and uh and blowing in

382
00:17:02,749 --> 00:17:00,720
the opposite direction of its travel so

383
00:17:05,510 --> 00:17:02,759
that tells us that the winds in that

384
00:17:08,510 --> 00:17:05,520
area are pretty pretty steady

385
00:17:10,370 --> 00:17:08,520
um and the perlite Mill also um in that

386
00:17:13,429 --> 00:17:10,380
direction it was reaching

387
00:17:16,250 --> 00:17:13,439
um supersonic speeds as the second

388
00:17:18,049 --> 00:17:16,260
police officer that Lonnie called in for

389
00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:18,059
health arrived

390
00:17:23,150 --> 00:17:20,640
now one of the things when the object

391
00:17:26,390 --> 00:17:23,160
took off you know the flame came out

392
00:17:28,850 --> 00:17:26,400
and it it rose up you know not real high

393
00:17:31,549 --> 00:17:28,860
but it rose up then the flame went out

394
00:17:33,470 --> 00:17:31,559
and then the object started moving now

395
00:17:35,750 --> 00:17:33,480
was there I know there was the sound

396
00:17:37,490 --> 00:17:35,760
with the flame but was there a sound

397
00:17:38,650 --> 00:17:37,500
after that

398
00:17:41,630 --> 00:17:38,660
yeah

399
00:17:43,310 --> 00:17:41,640
like a second engine was engaged when it

400
00:17:46,130 --> 00:17:43,320
was completely silent

401
00:17:49,250 --> 00:17:46,140
and that's how he described it it went

402
00:17:53,930 --> 00:17:49,260
from being a roaring thunderous

403
00:17:56,690 --> 00:17:53,940
um uh flame to no flame no sound and

404
00:17:58,970 --> 00:17:56,700
moving at supersonic speeds away and at

405
00:18:01,010 --> 00:17:58,980
an angle of 45 degrees

406
00:18:02,690 --> 00:18:01,020
did Lonnie himself claim that he saw

407
00:18:05,990 --> 00:18:02,700
this thing go all the way until it

408
00:18:07,730 --> 00:18:06,000
disappeared that's right you did yeah

409
00:18:10,490 --> 00:18:07,740
yeah wow

410
00:18:15,110 --> 00:18:10,500
I I know that you said that there were

411
00:18:17,150 --> 00:18:15,120
other reports of of egg-shaped craft and

412
00:18:18,710 --> 00:18:17,160
would and you said the military actually

413
00:18:21,289 --> 00:18:18,720
spotted something

414
00:18:23,150 --> 00:18:21,299
right so even as of late a lot of the

415
00:18:25,070 --> 00:18:23,160
stuff they've been calling the Tic Tac

416
00:18:27,830 --> 00:18:25,080
seems to resemble

417
00:18:29,570 --> 00:18:27,840
um an egg shape so to speak right and I

418
00:18:32,029 --> 00:18:29,580
was going to ask you about that yeah

419
00:18:35,450 --> 00:18:32,039
all right so that that could very well

420
00:18:38,630 --> 00:18:35,460
be in the same family there's a similar

421
00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:38,640
type craft recorded in France in Italy

422
00:18:43,250 --> 00:18:41,760
just all over the world yeah

423
00:18:45,950 --> 00:18:43,260
and you know we're not talking

424
00:18:48,470 --> 00:18:45,960
aerodynamics here you know that's that's

425
00:18:50,570 --> 00:18:48,480
the thing uh you know and I I don't

426
00:18:53,150 --> 00:18:50,580
think that's part of the equation anyway

427
00:18:56,029 --> 00:18:53,160
myself how these things get to where

428
00:18:57,710 --> 00:18:56,039
from point A to point B has anything to

429
00:19:00,169 --> 00:18:57,720
do with aerodynamics I don't think so

430
00:19:02,390 --> 00:19:00,179
but I mean that's speculation of course

431
00:19:04,549 --> 00:19:02,400
well yeah a lot of exotic physics seems

432
00:19:07,250 --> 00:19:04,559
to indicate that shape and aerodynamics

433
00:19:08,810 --> 00:19:07,260
uh do not matter when you're talking

434
00:19:10,930 --> 00:19:08,820
about exotic propulsion that creates

435
00:19:14,210 --> 00:19:10,940
electromagnetic fields and therefore

436
00:19:15,770 --> 00:19:14,220
those rules no longer apply

437
00:19:19,850 --> 00:19:15,780
now uh

438
00:19:21,289 --> 00:19:19,860
when when Lonnie saw these these uh he

439
00:19:23,570 --> 00:19:21,299
said they look like children this at the

440
00:19:26,930 --> 00:19:23,580
height of children they they appeared to

441
00:19:30,070 --> 00:19:26,940
be startled when they saw him

442
00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:30,080
watching them right exactly not expect

443
00:19:34,909 --> 00:19:32,640
anybody to be following them or

444
00:19:36,289 --> 00:19:34,919
especially not to appear that closely so

445
00:19:37,789 --> 00:19:36,299
quickly

446
00:19:39,529 --> 00:19:37,799
um some postulate that maybe they were

447
00:19:41,409 --> 00:19:39,539
looking for something uh he said they

448
00:19:45,110 --> 00:19:41,419
were looking up and underneath the craft

449
00:19:47,690 --> 00:19:45,120
uh possibly looking down

450
00:19:49,789 --> 00:19:47,700
um there were some uh hearsay stories

451
00:19:52,370 --> 00:19:49,799
that were pretty fantastic that we heard

452
00:19:54,289 --> 00:19:52,380
that uh said that Lonnie perhaps

453
00:19:56,570 --> 00:19:54,299
collected something that looked like a

454
00:19:58,610 --> 00:19:56,580
credit card size circuit board it was

455
00:20:00,950 --> 00:19:58,620
sent away it never came back kind of

456
00:20:02,990 --> 00:20:00,960
thing we could not find any actual

457
00:20:05,029 --> 00:20:03,000
corroborating evidence to support the

458
00:20:07,669 --> 00:20:05,039
story but you hear stuff like that

459
00:20:10,370 --> 00:20:07,679
well I know there was a I believe a

460
00:20:13,669 --> 00:20:10,380
police officer was taking images right

461
00:20:16,430 --> 00:20:13,679
away of the landing pads or Impressions

462
00:20:19,730 --> 00:20:16,440
and They confiscated his camera

463
00:20:22,549 --> 00:20:19,740
the military did right and yeah that was

464
00:20:26,690 --> 00:20:22,559
Ted Jordan always had a camera with him

465
00:20:31,370 --> 00:20:26,700
and he took a bunch of photographs uh of

466
00:20:34,010 --> 00:20:31,380
the landing site and then the government

467
00:20:35,570 --> 00:20:34,020
came in and said you know we need to

468
00:20:37,610 --> 00:20:35,580
take a camera we'll give you back the

469
00:20:39,409 --> 00:20:37,620
footage and he never got the footage

470
00:20:41,630 --> 00:20:39,419
back and you know we have him in a

471
00:20:43,669 --> 00:20:41,640
presentation on cameras talking about it

472
00:20:46,610 --> 00:20:43,679
and saying you know they'd never give me

473
00:20:49,610 --> 00:20:46,620
my damn footage back but um it was

474
00:20:51,470 --> 00:20:49,620
confirmed and Ray had some film he

475
00:20:53,990 --> 00:20:51,480
shared with us where he's talking with

476
00:20:57,409 --> 00:20:54,000
Dr heineck Who has worked on this case

477
00:21:00,409 --> 00:20:57,419
for Blue Book where Dr hanik admits that

478
00:21:01,510 --> 00:21:00,419
the the uh film was fogged due to

479
00:21:03,830 --> 00:21:01,520
radiation

480
00:21:05,630 --> 00:21:03,840
and the second day there was no

481
00:21:07,610 --> 00:21:05,640
radiation detected there so that tells

482
00:21:10,490 --> 00:21:07,620
you that whatever the radiation was from

483
00:21:12,770 --> 00:21:10,500
probably the blue flame that knife into

484
00:21:14,750 --> 00:21:12,780
the ground underneath the craft it was

485
00:21:16,430 --> 00:21:14,760
kind of a weird exotic form of

486
00:21:19,130 --> 00:21:16,440
propulsion because it was there one day

487
00:21:22,669 --> 00:21:19,140
and then gone the next which is not

488
00:21:24,890 --> 00:21:22,679
usually not how radiation works right so

489
00:21:26,450 --> 00:21:24,900
and and Lonnie was close to it so if it

490
00:21:29,149 --> 00:21:26,460
had been anything like a propellant

491
00:21:31,250 --> 00:21:29,159
driven engine you know a earth made

492
00:21:33,529 --> 00:21:31,260
rocket engine it would have cooked him

493
00:21:35,990 --> 00:21:33,539
he was 30 feet away so you know it

494
00:21:37,070 --> 00:21:36,000
wasn't a chemical reaction rocket it was

495
00:21:41,570 --> 00:21:37,080
something

496
00:21:44,029 --> 00:21:41,580
as Ray would say uh some type of

497
00:21:45,529 --> 00:21:44,039
um plasma or something you know at the

498
00:21:47,330 --> 00:21:45,539
speed of light knife into the ground

499
00:21:49,549 --> 00:21:47,340
because it didn't dig a big hole either

500
00:21:52,549 --> 00:21:49,559
vitrified glass of the sand and the

501
00:21:56,270 --> 00:21:52,559
glass which takes 2300 degrees to do

502
00:21:58,870 --> 00:21:56,280
that so that was evidence that Carol and

503
00:22:02,870 --> 00:22:00,970
yeah

504
00:22:05,690 --> 00:22:02,880
they picked up

505
00:22:07,130 --> 00:22:05,700
um and the government we found documents

506
00:22:09,700 --> 00:22:07,140
where they said they you know having to

507
00:22:11,149 --> 00:22:09,710
analyze but never heard the results

508
00:22:13,730 --> 00:22:11,159
[Music]

509
00:22:16,549 --> 00:22:13,740
isn't that interesting now

510
00:22:18,470 --> 00:22:16,559
uh this is for an opinion this is a

511
00:22:20,750 --> 00:22:18,480
question for an opinion

512
00:22:21,770 --> 00:22:20,760
and I guess it's my opinion it seems

513
00:22:23,990 --> 00:22:21,780
like

514
00:22:26,690 --> 00:22:24,000
something that would be throwing Flames

515
00:22:28,610 --> 00:22:26,700
out of it seems kind of primitive for

516
00:22:30,350 --> 00:22:28,620
what the object

517
00:22:31,490 --> 00:22:30,360
you know you would think the object

518
00:22:33,950 --> 00:22:31,500
could do

519
00:22:37,190 --> 00:22:33,960
and I just want your feedback on that

520
00:22:38,990 --> 00:22:37,200
it always felt that uh we're evolving

521
00:22:41,870 --> 00:22:39,000
they're evolving they could have been

522
00:22:43,850 --> 00:22:41,880
here long before us and maybe they

523
00:22:46,549 --> 00:22:43,860
evolved away from that and we don't see

524
00:22:49,370 --> 00:22:46,559
that kind of thing anymore uh in fact

525
00:22:51,950 --> 00:22:49,380
remember when uh we used to get a lot of

526
00:22:55,070 --> 00:22:51,960
those nuts and bolts craft like uh

527
00:22:58,730 --> 00:22:55,080
Walters out of Florida uh it seems to me

528
00:23:02,090 --> 00:22:58,740
like there was an era of artistic and

529
00:23:04,730 --> 00:23:02,100
beautifully designed craft and now we're

530
00:23:08,990 --> 00:23:04,740
seeing like over evolved triangular

531
00:23:11,090 --> 00:23:09,000
boring craft and lights and orbs I'm

532
00:23:13,010 --> 00:23:11,100
saying bring back the classical artistic

533
00:23:15,409 --> 00:23:13,020
ones yeah

534
00:23:17,090 --> 00:23:15,419
it's a new model this year's model yeah

535
00:23:20,330 --> 00:23:17,100
right I don't like the new models you

536
00:23:23,630 --> 00:23:20,340
know I I think that and this is just an

537
00:23:26,570 --> 00:23:23,640
opinion but it's kind of like when we go

538
00:23:28,490 --> 00:23:26,580
to the Moon we have one craft as it's

539
00:23:30,169 --> 00:23:28,500
engine to get us there but the one that

540
00:23:33,230 --> 00:23:30,179
lands has a completely different engine

541
00:23:35,990 --> 00:23:33,240
yeah so this could have come out of a

542
00:23:37,669 --> 00:23:36,000
bigger craft but the smaller engines

543
00:23:38,630 --> 00:23:37,679
that come out and it seems to be

544
00:23:41,450 --> 00:23:38,640
evidence

545
00:23:44,270 --> 00:23:41,460
by some of the video we have is showing

546
00:23:46,970 --> 00:23:44,280
them or terrestrial propulsion still

547
00:23:47,930 --> 00:23:46,980
exotic but meant to fly an atmosphere so

548
00:23:50,270 --> 00:23:47,940
there's a big difference in the engine

549
00:23:51,830 --> 00:23:50,280
that flies in space and one's got to go

550
00:23:53,990 --> 00:23:51,840
through an atmosphere without you know

551
00:23:55,250 --> 00:23:54,000
giving telltale signs that you're there

552
00:23:57,710 --> 00:23:55,260
for one thing

553
00:23:59,510 --> 00:23:57,720
so it could just be I mean a blue flame

554
00:24:01,549 --> 00:23:59,520
knife into the ground and then going off

555
00:24:04,070 --> 00:24:01,559
into the craft silent ferment hovering

556
00:24:07,850 --> 00:24:04,080
that's still pretty exotic technology

557
00:24:10,370 --> 00:24:07,860
even to this day yeah no no it makes

558
00:24:11,630 --> 00:24:10,380
sense I mean you know uh I never really

559
00:24:13,250 --> 00:24:11,640
looked at it that way but you're right

560
00:24:16,010 --> 00:24:13,260
it could they may have different

561
00:24:17,990 --> 00:24:16,020
propulsions for different situations you

562
00:24:19,370 --> 00:24:18,000
know in this atmosphere may be different

563
00:24:21,409 --> 00:24:19,380
than

564
00:24:24,049 --> 00:24:21,419
some other planet's atmosphere wherever

565
00:24:27,110 --> 00:24:24,059
they go or wherever they're from may be

566
00:24:29,409 --> 00:24:27,120
totally different and just to be the Boy

567
00:24:32,029 --> 00:24:29,419
Scout prepared

568
00:24:34,549 --> 00:24:32,039
so uh so what are some of the

569
00:24:36,350 --> 00:24:34,559
interesting things that you know you

570
00:24:38,810 --> 00:24:36,360
you're going through you're doing this

571
00:24:41,390 --> 00:24:38,820
research and I I know you mentioned

572
00:24:43,490 --> 00:24:41,400
earlier about the documents that were

573
00:24:45,649 --> 00:24:43,500
found you know on Craigslist that Mercy

574
00:24:47,570 --> 00:24:45,659
have found and it was a great thing

575
00:24:50,090 --> 00:24:47,580
um and I'm sure I believe Dave Marler

576
00:24:51,169 --> 00:24:50,100
has those now uh but what are some of

577
00:24:53,090 --> 00:24:51,179
the interesting things that you

578
00:24:55,490 --> 00:24:53,100
uncovered that were basically unknown

579
00:24:57,049 --> 00:24:55,500
back when this was uh first written

580
00:25:01,430 --> 00:24:57,059
about

581
00:25:03,830 --> 00:25:01,440
of you well there's a lot of things that

582
00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:03,840
you know a lot of the documents I I

583
00:25:07,850 --> 00:25:05,760
remember I talked to uh

584
00:25:09,770 --> 00:25:07,860
Kevin Randall had a little bit of a beef

585
00:25:11,450 --> 00:25:09,780
about the fact that these were an

586
00:25:13,610 --> 00:25:11,460
official Blue Book documents and he was

587
00:25:15,710 --> 00:25:13,620
right about that but their Blue Book

588
00:25:17,270 --> 00:25:15,720
files written by Blue Book employees

589
00:25:20,090 --> 00:25:17,280
that just didn't make it into the blue

590
00:25:22,970 --> 00:25:20,100
you know the final document but some of

591
00:25:24,470 --> 00:25:22,980
the things were that Captain holder was

592
00:25:26,450 --> 00:25:24,480
surprised that

593
00:25:28,669 --> 00:25:26,460
ten years later he was getting calls

594
00:25:30,529 --> 00:25:28,679
from The Joint City for staffs asking

595
00:25:32,210 --> 00:25:30,539
him you know what do you think that

596
00:25:34,130 --> 00:25:32,220
thing was he's like why the hell are

597
00:25:35,810 --> 00:25:34,140
they calling me 10 years later about

598
00:25:37,730 --> 00:25:35,820
this case and why was there so much

599
00:25:40,490 --> 00:25:37,740
interest you know the White House was

600
00:25:42,289 --> 00:25:40,500
interested years later and you know

601
00:25:44,690 --> 00:25:42,299
Hector Quintanilla they had a blue book

602
00:25:46,610 --> 00:25:44,700
told him that was the one case he was so

603
00:25:49,010 --> 00:25:46,620
mad he couldn't solve it because he got

604
00:25:50,690 --> 00:25:49,020
a top secret clearance to go he said I'm

605
00:25:52,789 --> 00:25:50,700
going to find this craft and a hanger

606
00:25:54,409 --> 00:25:52,799
somewhere because there's a lot of bases

607
00:25:56,810 --> 00:25:54,419
around there you know Albuquerque and

608
00:25:58,730 --> 00:25:56,820
White Sands but he uh he never found

609
00:26:01,730 --> 00:25:58,740
anything he had clearances to go

610
00:26:03,110 --> 00:26:01,740
anywhere there was no such craft and he

611
00:26:04,909 --> 00:26:03,120
wrote he said you know I was just

612
00:26:08,090 --> 00:26:04,919
frustrated about it but on the camera

613
00:26:10,669 --> 00:26:08,100
he'd say there's nothing to it you know

614
00:26:12,710 --> 00:26:10,679
it's you know it's not from this it's

615
00:26:13,970 --> 00:26:12,720
not from another world but he never

616
00:26:15,950 --> 00:26:13,980
tells you where it's from because he

617
00:26:20,090 --> 00:26:15,960
didn't know where it was from

618
00:26:23,210 --> 00:26:20,100
right and do we know how much the FBI

619
00:26:25,310 --> 00:26:23,220
and the the CIA right wasn't the FBI and

620
00:26:27,890 --> 00:26:25,320
the CIA in the military how much

621
00:26:31,010 --> 00:26:27,900
research did they do how many people did

622
00:26:33,049 --> 00:26:31,020
they interview do we know any of that

623
00:26:35,390 --> 00:26:33,059
um right interviewed quite a few people

624
00:26:37,610 --> 00:26:35,400
uh in those days I mean are there a lot

625
00:26:39,350 --> 00:26:37,620
of witnesses that that heard it but he

626
00:26:40,669 --> 00:26:39,360
didn't he didn't have the time to reach

627
00:26:44,390 --> 00:26:40,679
all of them but there were like hundreds

628
00:26:45,710 --> 00:26:44,400
that say they heard the sound uh and the

629
00:26:47,210 --> 00:26:45,720
reason they didn't see it is because the

630
00:26:49,370 --> 00:26:47,220
way that sound travels and the way that

631
00:26:51,169 --> 00:26:49,380
it would reverberate off of the Arroyo

632
00:26:52,250 --> 00:26:51,179
and there was a lot of contention about

633
00:26:54,769 --> 00:26:52,260
that

634
00:26:56,210 --> 00:26:54,779
um and you had a pretty much you know

635
00:26:58,190 --> 00:26:56,220
learn a little bit about Sonic and

636
00:26:59,630 --> 00:26:58,200
Acoustics in order to understand that

637
00:27:00,830 --> 00:26:59,640
explanation of how hundreds could hear

638
00:27:02,330 --> 00:27:00,840
it in the direction that it wasn't

639
00:27:04,549 --> 00:27:02,340
really quite visible

640
00:27:06,769 --> 00:27:04,559
but I can understand why people said

641
00:27:09,350 --> 00:27:06,779
they heard it yeah yeah there was there

642
00:27:12,470 --> 00:27:09,360
was just a lot of documents that showed

643
00:27:14,090 --> 00:27:12,480
interest the FBI of course said you

644
00:27:15,769 --> 00:27:14,100
can't tell anybody we were here and that

645
00:27:19,310 --> 00:27:15,779
became part of the documents and then it

646
00:27:22,669 --> 00:27:19,320
came out that yeah the FBI was there and

647
00:27:25,010 --> 00:27:22,679
I guess the CIA was formed then but uh

648
00:27:27,169 --> 00:27:25,020
I'm not sure but uh Air Force was

649
00:27:30,230 --> 00:27:27,179
involved joint Chief of Staff so the

650
00:27:32,870 --> 00:27:30,240
White House was involved there was a lot

651
00:27:35,210 --> 00:27:32,880
of a lot of interest in the data they

652
00:27:37,850 --> 00:27:35,220
got like we've never seen the vitrified

653
00:27:39,890 --> 00:27:37,860
sand reports the samples of the you know

654
00:27:43,070 --> 00:27:39,900
underneath the craft and other things

655
00:27:45,169 --> 00:27:43,080
that were hurt to be taken plant samples

656
00:27:48,049 --> 00:27:45,179
because of bush got cooked sliced in

657
00:27:50,149 --> 00:27:48,059
half by the blue plasma beam but um

658
00:27:52,789 --> 00:27:50,159
there was a lot of for them to be so

659
00:27:54,890 --> 00:27:52,799
interested 10 years later tells you that

660
00:27:56,930 --> 00:27:54,900
they really they didn't have a clue what

661
00:27:59,630 --> 00:27:56,940
it was and they really really wanted to

662
00:28:01,010 --> 00:27:59,640
know what it was because if it's nobody

663
00:28:03,110 --> 00:28:01,020
else's then

664
00:28:04,490 --> 00:28:03,120
then they had a real problem

665
00:28:06,950 --> 00:28:04,500
yeah

666
00:28:09,890 --> 00:28:06,960
and that's that's the thing about this

667
00:28:13,310 --> 00:28:09,900
case in particular like it's it's never

668
00:28:16,250 --> 00:28:13,320
been there's never been the answer for

669
00:28:18,230 --> 00:28:16,260
it and you know Lonnie uh went the rest

670
00:28:21,250 --> 00:28:18,240
of his life kind of regretting that it

671
00:28:24,350 --> 00:28:21,260
happened to him you know he was getting

672
00:28:27,890 --> 00:28:24,360
badgered you know uh people wanted to

673
00:28:30,830 --> 00:28:27,900
know we wanted to talk to him and uh uh

674
00:28:31,730 --> 00:28:30,840
I'm sure he wished he hadn't gone after

675
00:28:34,430 --> 00:28:31,740
that

676
00:28:35,930 --> 00:28:34,440
kid racing away away to begin with and

677
00:28:38,450 --> 00:28:35,940
his life would have been so much

678
00:28:41,570 --> 00:28:38,460
different but I don't think he ever

679
00:28:43,010 --> 00:28:41,580
appreciated the interesting sighting

680
00:28:45,049 --> 00:28:43,020
that he had you know I don't think that

681
00:28:46,669 --> 00:28:45,059
he was the type of person that would

682
00:28:48,669 --> 00:28:46,679
want to have a setting like that that's

683
00:28:52,130 --> 00:28:48,679
right yeah

684
00:28:54,049 --> 00:28:52,140
he said if I could do it all over God I

685
00:28:56,690 --> 00:28:54,059
wouldn't have said anything but that you

686
00:28:59,029 --> 00:28:56,700
know that's what also solidifies the him

687
00:29:01,850 --> 00:28:59,039
as a witness he was he had no reason to

688
00:29:04,730 --> 00:29:01,860
tell his story in the first place and he

689
00:29:06,649 --> 00:29:04,740
wasn't interested in UFOs and it really

690
00:29:10,130 --> 00:29:06,659
changed his life you know because we we

691
00:29:13,669 --> 00:29:10,140
talked to you know his daughter and

692
00:29:15,710 --> 00:29:13,679
friends of his and he never changed his

693
00:29:17,510 --> 00:29:15,720
story unlike some witnesses who

694
00:29:20,510 --> 00:29:17,520
embellish as things go on long story

695
00:29:21,950 --> 00:29:20,520
stays the same and you could tell and

696
00:29:25,130 --> 00:29:21,960
his family said he was never the same

697
00:29:26,630 --> 00:29:25,140
after this and all the evidence we

698
00:29:29,990 --> 00:29:26,640
looked into every possible explanation

699
00:29:31,490 --> 00:29:30,000
black project uh lunar lander or the

700
00:29:34,190 --> 00:29:31,500
lunar Landers thrown out there a lot

701
00:29:35,690 --> 00:29:34,200
even by us yes PhD scientists in New

702
00:29:38,510 --> 00:29:35,700
Mexico State I won't mention them either

703
00:29:40,310 --> 00:29:38,520
but if you do a little homework you'll

704
00:29:43,250 --> 00:29:40,320
find that the lunar lander didn't fly

705
00:29:45,769 --> 00:29:43,260
until about nine months later it flew on

706
00:29:47,570 --> 00:29:45,779
a tether uh the first three tests I

707
00:29:49,370 --> 00:29:47,580
think ended with the pilot ejecting

708
00:29:52,490 --> 00:29:49,380
before the thing blew up and fell on the

709
00:29:56,029 --> 00:29:52,500
ground and so right that it was 33 miles

710
00:30:00,230 --> 00:29:56,039
away from Holloman uh you know flying in

711
00:30:02,810 --> 00:30:00,240
Socorro with a helicopter holding to a

712
00:30:04,970 --> 00:30:02,820
cable that's just ludicrous but you know

713
00:30:06,590 --> 00:30:04,980
there's a guy out there with a big

714
00:30:08,810 --> 00:30:06,600
scientific background says there's a

715
00:30:12,169 --> 00:30:08,820
lunar lander so you know that's right

716
00:30:14,750 --> 00:30:12,179
let's talk about for the other people

717
00:30:16,610 --> 00:30:14,760
that are claiming the hoax and

718
00:30:18,830 --> 00:30:16,620
I believe it was Colgate do I have that

719
00:30:23,630 --> 00:30:21,350
yeah it was Colgate he was a professor

720
00:30:24,769 --> 00:30:23,640
yeah a nearby College any of these

721
00:30:28,430 --> 00:30:24,779
students and he claimed that the

722
00:30:31,850 --> 00:30:28,440
students during uh exam season were the

723
00:30:33,230 --> 00:30:31,860
ones perpetrating uh this hoax so that

724
00:30:35,269 --> 00:30:33,240
could have been further from the truth

725
00:30:38,029 --> 00:30:35,279
because all these students you know it

726
00:30:40,970 --> 00:30:38,039
wasn't uh it wasn't vacation time it was

727
00:30:43,190 --> 00:30:40,980
it was time to study and and do these

728
00:30:45,470 --> 00:30:43,200
tests so his uh that whole story fell

729
00:30:47,029 --> 00:30:45,480
apart very quickly and Ben even chased

730
00:30:50,090 --> 00:30:47,039
down some of the some of the people that

731
00:30:53,210 --> 00:30:50,100
were claiming uh this story and that one

732
00:30:55,789 --> 00:30:53,220
of them was Ill in the hospital and

733
00:30:57,230 --> 00:30:55,799
dying and the other one just refused and

734
00:30:59,330 --> 00:30:57,240
he said it wasn't true I don't know why

735
00:31:02,210 --> 00:30:59,340
anyone's coming after me I never said it

736
00:31:04,549 --> 00:31:02,220
was true and this kind of thing yeah not

737
00:31:06,289 --> 00:31:04,559
the disparage cold cold day but you know

738
00:31:08,510 --> 00:31:06,299
doing a little homework on him he was

739
00:31:10,909 --> 00:31:08,520
the uh kind of like a party Professor I

740
00:31:12,710 --> 00:31:10,919
like to hang out and maybe smoke some

741
00:31:16,789 --> 00:31:12,720
doobies with the students and stuff but

742
00:31:18,830 --> 00:31:16,799
he I think he said this story and then

743
00:31:20,750 --> 00:31:18,840
was embarrassed that he had said it

744
00:31:23,149 --> 00:31:20,760
because he just kind of blurted out it

745
00:31:26,510 --> 00:31:23,159
was a student hoax and he said he said

746
00:31:30,529 --> 00:31:26,520
it was a candle and a bag or a candle

747
00:31:34,610 --> 00:31:30,539
you know the flame and um like a Chinese

748
00:31:36,110 --> 00:31:34,620
uh there was another guy later that I

749
00:31:39,049 --> 00:31:36,120
found a document from who's the

750
00:31:41,090 --> 00:31:39,059
president of the same College there who

751
00:31:43,070 --> 00:31:41,100
said he looked into it and that's that

752
00:31:45,230 --> 00:31:43,080
wasn't true at all and that Colgate was

753
00:31:47,870 --> 00:31:45,240
just trying to cover up something he

754
00:31:50,149 --> 00:31:47,880
said that he had no evidence for so the

755
00:31:52,789 --> 00:31:50,159
three students I actually found their

756
00:31:55,070 --> 00:31:52,799
names one of them as Tony said was sick

757
00:31:56,810 --> 00:31:55,080
and one of them finally communicated and

758
00:31:59,389 --> 00:31:56,820
said look I don't know why Colgate

759
00:32:01,789 --> 00:31:59,399
because he apparently gave up some names

760
00:32:03,529 --> 00:32:01,799
he said I don't know why Colgate threw

761
00:32:06,169 --> 00:32:03,539
me under the bus but you know we were in

762
00:32:08,029 --> 00:32:06,179
class we were having exams and if you

763
00:32:10,850 --> 00:32:08,039
look at the story there's no way a

764
00:32:12,529 --> 00:32:10,860
student could have lured Lonnie a

765
00:32:14,149 --> 00:32:12,539
quarter of a mile up a hill that took

766
00:32:17,570 --> 00:32:14,159
him three tries to get over into the

767
00:32:20,090 --> 00:32:17,580
desert to that specific spot to launch a

768
00:32:21,049 --> 00:32:20,100
candle and balloon or yeah it's just

769
00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:21,059
ridiculous

770
00:32:25,490 --> 00:32:23,279
so yeah I mean the only reason he turned

771
00:32:28,250 --> 00:32:25,500
up that way is because he saw the light

772
00:32:29,570 --> 00:32:28,260
right this guy hey Lonnie because of the

773
00:32:31,130 --> 00:32:29,580
nature of Lonnie I have a little chapter

774
00:32:32,930 --> 00:32:31,140
we have a whole chapter on that about

775
00:32:35,090 --> 00:32:32,940
the nature of Lonnie Zamora he was such

776
00:32:38,330 --> 00:32:35,100
he was a nice guy a caring guy uh

777
00:32:41,269 --> 00:32:38,340
officer a family man he thought some

778
00:32:43,130 --> 00:32:41,279
type of vehicle was in trouble so when

779
00:32:45,350 --> 00:32:43,140
he saw the blue flame crossing over the

780
00:32:47,450 --> 00:32:45,360
sky he was thinking okay that could be a

781
00:32:50,690 --> 00:32:47,460
plane crash and then when he first saw

782
00:32:52,610 --> 00:32:50,700
the craft which was white egg shape he

783
00:32:54,529 --> 00:32:52,620
thought it was an overturned vehicle or

784
00:32:58,070 --> 00:32:54,539
a camper or you know all the logical

785
00:32:59,810 --> 00:32:58,080
things you think of in 1964. but the

786
00:33:01,370 --> 00:32:59,820
fact that of his nature with a brand new

787
00:33:03,470 --> 00:33:01,380
police car that he went there he really

788
00:33:05,210 --> 00:33:03,480
thought somebody was in trouble and

789
00:33:07,190 --> 00:33:05,220
yeah that's just how that whole thing

790
00:33:09,169 --> 00:33:07,200
began it's just a lot of things had to

791
00:33:11,269 --> 00:33:09,179
come together for this whole thing to

792
00:33:13,250 --> 00:33:11,279
play out and then his encounter was like

793
00:33:14,990 --> 00:33:13,260
two minutes and 30 seconds we also found

794
00:33:18,169 --> 00:33:15,000
the dynamite shock where it was out

795
00:33:23,350 --> 00:33:18,179
there oh does that still exist or not on

796
00:33:31,070 --> 00:33:28,789
that was there yeah and I I had a

797
00:33:33,769 --> 00:33:31,080
sighting you know I Tony unfortunately

798
00:33:35,210 --> 00:33:33,779
didn't see it but we were there I

799
00:33:38,389 --> 00:33:35,220
thought it was the first or second time

800
00:33:41,389 --> 00:33:38,399
I swear to God Tony was where I think we

801
00:33:43,730 --> 00:33:41,399
were measuring the how far uh the

802
00:33:45,830 --> 00:33:43,740
creosite Bush was from where Lonnie saw

803
00:33:48,049 --> 00:33:45,840
the creatures but there was this thing

804
00:33:50,630 --> 00:33:48,059
that was about this pig

805
00:33:52,430 --> 00:33:50,640
it was shaped like a pick that this

806
00:33:54,590 --> 00:33:52,440
happened before those tastery revealing

807
00:33:55,970 --> 00:33:54,600
I think I called that but it just was

808
00:33:58,610 --> 00:33:55,980
zipping along the ground and came

809
00:34:01,009 --> 00:33:58,620
through the Aurora we were in at

810
00:34:02,750 --> 00:34:01,019
probably like 100 miles an hour and it

811
00:34:04,970 --> 00:34:02,760
was ground terrain so it was going up

812
00:34:07,130 --> 00:34:04,980
and just went off out of sight

813
00:34:11,030 --> 00:34:07,140
and like lightning is like do you see

814
00:34:14,349 --> 00:34:13,550
I was looking up at this guy yeah

815
00:34:18,349 --> 00:34:14,359
yeah

816
00:34:21,649 --> 00:34:18,359
no I know um you know there's that that

817
00:34:23,210 --> 00:34:21,659
area had been inspected by Rey you know

818
00:34:25,730 --> 00:34:23,220
Ray was there and

819
00:34:27,349 --> 00:34:25,740
you know the story about The Rock in the

820
00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:27,359
uh where the impression was and stuff

821
00:34:33,050 --> 00:34:29,520
like that that was always interesting

822
00:34:35,690 --> 00:34:33,060
but it's inconclusive because of uh the

823
00:34:37,730 --> 00:34:35,700
way it was handled unfortunately

824
00:34:39,470 --> 00:34:37,740
and that that would have been some

825
00:34:41,930 --> 00:34:39,480
pretty good trace evidence

826
00:34:44,690 --> 00:34:41,940
for sure I mean I don't know how that

827
00:34:46,369 --> 00:34:44,700
was missed by everyone I mean was it you

828
00:34:49,070 --> 00:34:46,379
know that's a strange thing that they

829
00:34:52,250 --> 00:34:49,080
didn't see it even see it

830
00:34:53,869 --> 00:34:52,260
and to me it follows the same lines of

831
00:34:57,890 --> 00:34:53,879
protocol that we hear about all the time

832
00:34:59,690 --> 00:34:57,900
uh it was handed off it disappeared but

833
00:35:02,109 --> 00:34:59,700
before it disappeared we got a report

834
00:35:05,270 --> 00:35:02,119
that corroborated it this kind of thing

835
00:35:07,970 --> 00:35:05,280
uh Ray still has The Rock and we think

836
00:35:10,190 --> 00:35:07,980
there is just enough left on there that

837
00:35:13,030 --> 00:35:10,200
with the right equipment perhaps it can

838
00:35:15,890 --> 00:35:13,040
get something off of it

839
00:35:17,990 --> 00:35:15,900
that's volcanic rock so it's got a lot

840
00:35:20,690 --> 00:35:18,000
of you know everything uranium and

841
00:35:23,810 --> 00:35:20,700
crystals and things but The Rock has

842
00:35:25,490 --> 00:35:23,820
this melted green smeared crystals and

843
00:35:28,790 --> 00:35:25,500
we're wondering you know if the blue

844
00:35:30,589 --> 00:35:28,800
flame played over it what could melt

845
00:35:32,870 --> 00:35:30,599
these crystals the way they they're

846
00:35:34,609 --> 00:35:32,880
melted and so there might still be

847
00:35:35,990 --> 00:35:34,619
something on that rock that a scientists

848
00:35:39,230 --> 00:35:36,000
could go hmm

849
00:35:40,550 --> 00:35:39,240
you know you you know as we always say

850
00:35:42,230 --> 00:35:40,560
if you give them the Rock and don't tell

851
00:35:44,390 --> 00:35:42,240
them what it is just tell me what you

852
00:35:46,790 --> 00:35:44,400
find I'll tell them it's the UFO's

853
00:35:49,310 --> 00:35:46,800
engine plate over it but if it has weird

854
00:35:50,990 --> 00:35:49,320
properties and you know things they can

855
00:35:52,370 --> 00:35:51,000
Discover it still might be some evidence

856
00:35:55,970 --> 00:35:52,380
for that event

857
00:35:57,710 --> 00:35:55,980
hmm that would be something else

858
00:35:59,930 --> 00:35:57,720
um so when

859
00:36:01,910 --> 00:35:59,940
you know a lot of a lot of people say

860
00:36:05,569 --> 00:36:01,920
they it always comes back to the same

861
00:36:07,730 --> 00:36:05,579
thing that this case's validity the

862
00:36:11,569 --> 00:36:07,740
biggest part of the validity is Ronnie

863
00:36:13,670 --> 00:36:11,579
alani's Samora himself you know because

864
00:36:15,530 --> 00:36:13,680
he was such a stand-up guy he had such a

865
00:36:18,710 --> 00:36:15,540
great reputation it was a no-nonsense

866
00:36:21,890 --> 00:36:18,720
type of guy and all that

867
00:36:25,370 --> 00:36:21,900
um do you know that if anyone had ever

868
00:36:27,349 --> 00:36:25,380
tried to talk him out of what he saw you

869
00:36:29,450 --> 00:36:27,359
know how I don't know if you heard of

870
00:36:32,450 --> 00:36:29,460
you know when it comes to Travis Walden

871
00:36:34,069 --> 00:36:32,460
and stuff like that the Philip Glass uh

872
00:36:36,770 --> 00:36:34,079
supposedly offered a check to one of the

873
00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:36,780
people there to say it was a hoax that

874
00:36:40,970 --> 00:36:38,640
type of thing when it's when the

875
00:36:42,530 --> 00:36:40,980
evidence is so compelling in a case like

876
00:36:44,990 --> 00:36:42,540
this you never know or something like

877
00:36:48,170 --> 00:36:45,000
that well let me tell you he was accused

878
00:36:49,270 --> 00:36:48,180
of of Faking it for tourism money which

879
00:36:53,150 --> 00:36:49,280
never

880
00:36:54,829 --> 00:36:53,160
listened yeah uh they uh they even made

881
00:36:58,990 --> 00:36:54,839
a fake site to keep people from coming

882
00:37:02,150 --> 00:36:59,000
to the real site and that's barely ever

883
00:37:04,609 --> 00:37:02,160
and only recently are they trying to put

884
00:37:05,990 --> 00:37:04,619
a mural up and I was blown away that

885
00:37:09,170 --> 00:37:06,000
they're using little green aliens

886
00:37:12,710 --> 00:37:09,180
holding AR-15s

887
00:37:14,030 --> 00:37:12,720
who thought of that yeah like just

888
00:37:16,190 --> 00:37:14,040
there's a lot you know I'll tell you

889
00:37:18,530 --> 00:37:16,200
what if they use the Ray's artwork and

890
00:37:21,290 --> 00:37:18,540
got permission to use it which depicts

891
00:37:22,730 --> 00:37:21,300
the what Lonnie Zamora saw in the Arroyo

892
00:37:25,430 --> 00:37:22,740
with the two little figures and all that

893
00:37:26,930 --> 00:37:25,440
it's a drawing it's in our book and uh

894
00:37:28,670 --> 00:37:26,940
that would be a great mural to have

895
00:37:30,650 --> 00:37:28,680
because it would represents what

896
00:37:35,690 --> 00:37:30,660
actually happened at least not green

897
00:37:37,550 --> 00:37:35,700
aliens with AR-15s that's crazy jeez wow

898
00:37:39,010 --> 00:37:37,560
yeah I don't think uh socorro's ever

899
00:37:43,430 --> 00:37:39,020
really become much of a tourist

900
00:37:45,650 --> 00:37:43,440
destination right to me Lonnie Lonnie

901
00:37:47,270 --> 00:37:45,660
Lonnie's life being ruined by it and

902
00:37:49,790 --> 00:37:47,280
being reluctant to ever talk about it

903
00:37:52,370 --> 00:37:49,800
says a lot yeah the thing is that he was

904
00:37:54,770 --> 00:37:52,380
contacted by you know Japan and because

905
00:37:56,690 --> 00:37:54,780
it's not in Japan for a long time Japan

906
00:37:59,329 --> 00:37:56,700
has you know sent people over here

907
00:38:01,310 --> 00:37:59,339
reporters and loves UFO stuff because a

908
00:38:03,290 --> 00:38:01,320
lot of this happens over there but he

909
00:38:05,690 --> 00:38:03,300
had so many opportunities to make money

910
00:38:08,030 --> 00:38:05,700
and be on TV and he turned them all down

911
00:38:10,069 --> 00:38:08,040
because he he said at one point I'm just

912
00:38:11,810 --> 00:38:10,079
sick of it I'm so tired tired of it I

913
00:38:13,250 --> 00:38:11,820
don't want to talk about it when we

914
00:38:15,470 --> 00:38:13,260
interviewed his friends his friends

915
00:38:17,150 --> 00:38:15,480
would say you never would bring the

916
00:38:19,670 --> 00:38:17,160
subject up they would just talk about

917
00:38:21,290 --> 00:38:19,680
regular stuff but if Lonnie wanted to

918
00:38:23,810 --> 00:38:21,300
talk about it then he'd bring it up and

919
00:38:25,849 --> 00:38:23,820
start talking about it you know when you

920
00:38:27,589 --> 00:38:25,859
say this that reminds me of Calvin

921
00:38:29,930 --> 00:38:27,599
Parker and Charlie Hixson where Hixson

922
00:38:32,270 --> 00:38:29,940
and talking about it Kyle did not want

923
00:38:33,589 --> 00:38:32,280
to talk about it so you can see how two

924
00:38:35,329 --> 00:38:33,599
people that experience the same thing

925
00:38:38,630 --> 00:38:35,339
one takes One Direction one takes the

926
00:38:40,609 --> 00:38:38,640
other exactly yeah that does happen so I

927
00:38:44,210 --> 00:38:40,619
I just want to uh I shouldn't really

928
00:38:47,630 --> 00:38:44,220
give this any any air time at all uh but

929
00:38:49,329 --> 00:38:47,640
uh there are uh you know this is in chat

930
00:38:52,310 --> 00:38:49,339
and causing

931
00:38:54,530 --> 00:38:52,320
it's actually you can hear Lonnie say he

932
00:38:56,390 --> 00:38:54,540
saw figures so go do your homework

933
00:38:58,430 --> 00:38:56,400
yeah there you go we have several

934
00:38:59,930 --> 00:38:58,440
interviews at the end he would say the

935
00:39:02,750 --> 00:38:59,940
creatures he would actually name those

936
00:39:05,750 --> 00:39:02,760
the creatures and we when we talked to

937
00:39:07,490 --> 00:39:05,760
his uh he thought there were children at

938
00:39:09,230 --> 00:39:07,500
right at first he thought they were

939
00:39:11,030 --> 00:39:09,240
children right we think he got a better

940
00:39:12,890 --> 00:39:11,040
look that he called him coveralls but we

941
00:39:14,810 --> 00:39:12,900
think he got a better look at him and it

942
00:39:17,690 --> 00:39:14,820
freaked him out because he did go to his

943
00:39:21,050 --> 00:39:17,700
uh priest and for like two two or three

944
00:39:22,609 --> 00:39:21,060
hours that night and had a long talk

945
00:39:25,250 --> 00:39:22,619
with them because we think he thought he

946
00:39:27,109 --> 00:39:25,260
saw demons as about Catholic but his

947
00:39:29,630 --> 00:39:27,119
priests we found out it told him he said

948
00:39:31,970 --> 00:39:29,640
Lonnie if you tell the story you can

949
00:39:34,370 --> 00:39:31,980
either stop talking about it or tell the

950
00:39:36,530 --> 00:39:34,380
truth and for his entire life Lonnie

951
00:39:38,450 --> 00:39:36,540
told the truth didn't embellish it

952
00:39:40,490 --> 00:39:38,460
didn't make money off of it hated that

953
00:39:43,190 --> 00:39:40,500
you know he would do he would stop doing

954
00:39:45,589 --> 00:39:43,200
interviews for 20 years and he did

955
00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:45,599
sightings I think UFO Hunters towards

956
00:39:50,210 --> 00:39:48,240
the end which a really good clip so you

957
00:39:52,690 --> 00:39:50,220
know if you do a little homework you'll

958
00:39:56,150 --> 00:39:52,700
see that he did talk about two figures

959
00:39:58,490 --> 00:39:56,160
that were standing on the craft and you

960
00:40:01,190 --> 00:39:58,500
know we're about four feet tall in white

961
00:40:02,450 --> 00:40:01,200
outfits but I think he saw something I

962
00:40:04,670 --> 00:40:02,460
think he saw something that told him

963
00:40:07,730 --> 00:40:04,680
they weren't human and that's why he was

964
00:40:09,410 --> 00:40:07,740
never the same after this

965
00:40:13,010 --> 00:40:09,420
well um

966
00:40:15,349 --> 00:40:13,020
yeah I mean it's uh it is it is a sad

967
00:40:16,970 --> 00:40:15,359
thing that he had to it was almost it

968
00:40:19,849 --> 00:40:16,980
was a burden to him this whole thing was

969
00:40:21,470 --> 00:40:19,859
a burden to him and the fact that you is

970
00:40:23,810 --> 00:40:21,480
a very good point he never made any

971
00:40:25,609 --> 00:40:23,820
money off this and that's where you know

972
00:40:27,770 --> 00:40:25,619
people would like to stand on their

973
00:40:29,089 --> 00:40:27,780
soapbox and say hey look you know he's

974
00:40:30,950 --> 00:40:29,099
doing this for the money but he never

975
00:40:32,569 --> 00:40:30,960
made a penny out of it right A lot of

976
00:40:34,550 --> 00:40:32,579
people don't realize that this wasn't a

977
00:40:37,910 --> 00:40:34,560
one-off event this was happening before

978
00:40:40,010 --> 00:40:37,920
and after this event and what is the

979
00:40:40,910 --> 00:40:40,020
most compelling sighting that people

980
00:40:45,589 --> 00:40:40,920
have

981
00:40:47,810 --> 00:40:45,599
about seeing a similar craft they

982
00:40:50,349 --> 00:40:47,820
weren't talked about much but a lot of

983
00:40:54,109 --> 00:40:50,359
the other police officers yeah yeah

984
00:40:57,530 --> 00:40:54,119
famous One La Madeira had the same uh

985
00:40:59,990 --> 00:40:57,540
same shape craft landed for

986
00:41:02,569 --> 00:41:00,000
um triangular marks same as Sequoia

987
00:41:04,970 --> 00:41:02,579
burnt in the center blue flame all the

988
00:41:07,310 --> 00:41:04,980
same information and then in two other

989
00:41:10,250 --> 00:41:07,320
cities uh I think three or four days

990
00:41:11,930 --> 00:41:10,260
before a little boy saw one and then a

991
00:41:13,430 --> 00:41:11,940
police officer was driving by I wonder

992
00:41:17,150 --> 00:41:13,440
why the boys standing the street looking

993
00:41:19,849 --> 00:41:17,160
up the sky he got out and he saw an egg

994
00:41:22,490 --> 00:41:19,859
white egg-shaped craft with a blue glow

995
00:41:25,130 --> 00:41:22,500
around it and broad daylight and there's

996
00:41:27,530 --> 00:41:25,140
like 25 articles and different

997
00:41:30,109 --> 00:41:27,540
newspapers like this of different events

998
00:41:32,630 --> 00:41:30,119
of an egg-shaped craft so you're talking

999
00:41:34,609 --> 00:41:32,640
about a flap really it also in France

1000
00:41:36,050 --> 00:41:34,619
you had the valence little case that was

1001
00:41:38,329 --> 00:41:36,060
very reminiscent because it had an

1002
00:41:39,589 --> 00:41:38,339
egg-shaped craft as well but it had a

1003
00:41:42,410 --> 00:41:39,599
separate

1004
00:41:44,329 --> 00:41:42,420
um tripod or Quad Pad that was beneath

1005
00:41:46,250 --> 00:41:44,339
it that didn't seem connected to the

1006
00:41:48,109 --> 00:41:46,260
craft and they it was it seemed to hover

1007
00:41:50,390 --> 00:41:48,119
above it and it moved up and then the

1008
00:41:52,970 --> 00:41:50,400
bottom came up after it which was kind

1009
00:41:56,390 --> 00:41:52,980
of weird almost like yeah that's like a

1010
00:41:59,210 --> 00:41:56,400
Lander of some kind similar to it you

1011
00:42:01,370 --> 00:41:59,220
know I mean it's opposite but still uh

1012
00:42:02,390 --> 00:42:01,380
yeah that's really interesting

1013
00:42:04,550 --> 00:42:02,400
um and

1014
00:42:06,829 --> 00:42:04,560
they really didn't you know besides the

1015
00:42:09,770 --> 00:42:06,839
Tic Tacs you didn't really hear much

1016
00:42:11,930 --> 00:42:09,780
about the egg shape Craft

1017
00:42:13,609 --> 00:42:11,940
um other than those those incidents

1018
00:42:16,310 --> 00:42:13,619
right

1019
00:42:18,170 --> 00:42:16,320
I mean there's a handful there's two

1020
00:42:19,730 --> 00:42:18,180
things that are strange is you don't get

1021
00:42:22,250 --> 00:42:19,740
a lot of egg-shaped graph and you get

1022
00:42:25,430 --> 00:42:22,260
very few symbols on UFOs and now you

1023
00:42:27,950 --> 00:42:25,440
have two one but you know I just think I

1024
00:42:29,630 --> 00:42:27,960
personally I think maybe there's

1025
00:42:31,730 --> 00:42:29,640
probably several civilizations looking

1026
00:42:33,829 --> 00:42:31,740
at us so they that's just what they had

1027
00:42:36,530 --> 00:42:33,839
at that time maybe they were passing

1028
00:42:38,270 --> 00:42:36,540
through this arm of the Galaxy and you

1029
00:42:40,190 --> 00:42:38,280
know that's the craft they take you know

1030
00:42:41,569 --> 00:42:40,200
come out of a smaller graph because I'm

1031
00:42:43,370 --> 00:42:41,579
of the uh we've talked about this

1032
00:42:45,710 --> 00:42:43,380
recently I'm of the impression that

1033
00:42:47,810 --> 00:42:45,720
these there's drones all over the place

1034
00:42:50,810 --> 00:42:47,820
that come from something bigger that's

1035
00:42:52,670 --> 00:42:50,820
monitoring us and probably the rest of

1036
00:42:55,910 --> 00:42:52,680
this and this this part of the Galaxy

1037
00:42:57,710 --> 00:42:55,920
but I think they're everywhere and a lot

1038
00:42:59,870 --> 00:42:57,720
you know maybe it's more than one

1039
00:43:03,050 --> 00:42:59,880
civilization that could sound crazy but

1040
00:43:05,329 --> 00:43:03,060
all the evidence is starting to a lot of

1041
00:43:08,690 --> 00:43:05,339
these videos seem to show and even the

1042
00:43:12,650 --> 00:43:08,700
government ones drones like round craft

1043
00:43:14,270 --> 00:43:12,660
you know the the um Tic Tacs the

1044
00:43:17,510 --> 00:43:14,280
performance capabilities

1045
00:43:19,069 --> 00:43:17,520
that's not China if it was China you

1046
00:43:20,170 --> 00:43:19,079
know we'd be speaking Chinese right now

1047
00:43:23,870 --> 00:43:20,180
so

1048
00:43:26,329 --> 00:43:23,880
clear out there

1049
00:43:30,130 --> 00:43:26,339
um this these are the this is a good

1050
00:43:33,650 --> 00:43:30,140
graphic I just found online of uh the

1051
00:43:35,270 --> 00:43:33,660
decoy one is this one it's clearly

1052
00:43:37,309 --> 00:43:35,280
marked right here I'll put this also in

1053
00:43:39,589 --> 00:43:37,319
the show notes for those of you that are

1054
00:43:42,050 --> 00:43:39,599
listening to just the audio

1055
00:43:44,750 --> 00:43:42,060
um so you see in all the the videos of

1056
00:43:47,990 --> 00:43:44,760
this throughout time the one that is the

1057
00:43:51,170 --> 00:43:48,000
decoy on uh the screen to the left and

1058
00:43:53,089 --> 00:43:51,180
then the genuine is the one that you uh

1059
00:43:55,309 --> 00:43:53,099
had come forward with and actually you

1060
00:43:57,829 --> 00:43:55,319
have hats made I have a hat and there's

1061
00:44:04,030 --> 00:43:57,839
also you can you can say it in Spanish

1062
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:13,510
lineage there

1063
00:44:18,050 --> 00:44:16,130
and the thing about that is that in why

1064
00:44:19,490 --> 00:44:18,060
heinek put one line above and then two

1065
00:44:21,770 --> 00:44:19,500
in the middle it was just another

1066
00:44:23,690 --> 00:44:21,780
variation so it's either the three

1067
00:44:26,329 --> 00:44:23,700
across like that or you take one of them

1068
00:44:28,550 --> 00:44:26,339
and put it just above the point uh so

1069
00:44:31,010 --> 00:44:28,560
heinek was was proposing those the one

1070
00:44:31,910 --> 00:44:31,020
with the umbrella was the purely decoy

1071
00:44:37,490 --> 00:44:31,920
yeah

1072
00:44:39,950 --> 00:44:37,500
you know any handwriting expert has said

1073
00:44:41,690 --> 00:44:39,960
that whoever drew the symbol is not the

1074
00:44:43,730 --> 00:44:41,700
same person that signed it Lonnie's more

1075
00:44:47,349 --> 00:44:43,740
was told the scientists like signed for

1076
00:44:50,150 --> 00:44:47,359
God and Country you know Lonnie was a

1077
00:44:52,730 --> 00:44:50,160
was God in country so he would do what

1078
00:44:55,730 --> 00:44:52,740
they asked him and we think his partner

1079
00:44:57,349 --> 00:44:55,740
saw it um started in Chavez but he kept

1080
00:44:59,089 --> 00:44:57,359
thinking it was a black project and he

1081
00:45:01,010 --> 00:44:59,099
didn't want to say anything and he never

1082
00:45:03,490 --> 00:45:01,020
said anything because he didn't want to

1083
00:45:05,569 --> 00:45:03,500
get into trouble

1084
00:45:09,109 --> 00:45:05,579
so when

1085
00:45:11,750 --> 00:45:09,119
when this uh was uncovered that I mean

1086
00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:11,760
how long ago was this uncovered the

1087
00:45:15,890 --> 00:45:13,680
right type of symbol and and were there

1088
00:45:16,970 --> 00:45:15,900
any people that were claiming to see the

1089
00:45:19,190 --> 00:45:16,980
other one

1090
00:45:21,470 --> 00:45:19,200
you know the copycat type people

1091
00:45:23,089 --> 00:45:21,480
well I think Ray and Ray and Lonnie were

1092
00:45:25,730 --> 00:45:23,099
working on that original symbol right

1093
00:45:29,030 --> 00:45:25,740
from the beginning he arrived on Tuesday

1094
00:45:32,030 --> 00:45:29,040
the 26th that was when he met heineck

1095
00:45:33,470 --> 00:45:32,040
and uh and Lonnie at the site and right

1096
00:45:35,750 --> 00:45:33,480
away I think he was talking about the

1097
00:45:38,690 --> 00:45:35,760
symbol yeah what what happened was the

1098
00:45:40,130 --> 00:45:38,700
symbol came out the newspaper came out

1099
00:45:41,870 --> 00:45:40,140
every three years really fast yeah

1100
00:45:43,790 --> 00:45:41,880
before they could stop so before they

1101
00:45:46,069 --> 00:45:43,800
could get in and do all this symbol

1102
00:45:48,710 --> 00:45:46,079
changing stuff the symbol was described

1103
00:45:51,710 --> 00:45:48,720
to several police officers it was drawn

1104
00:45:54,230 --> 00:45:51,720
in the paper on the craft that the guy

1105
00:45:55,370 --> 00:45:54,240
drew a hare Baca I think right drew a

1106
00:45:57,109 --> 00:45:55,380
picture of the craft and put the

1107
00:45:59,030 --> 00:45:57,119
inverted V with three bars that the

1108
00:46:02,569 --> 00:45:59,040
government came and made him a race

1109
00:46:05,569 --> 00:46:02,579
later but uh it got out the early

1110
00:46:08,089 --> 00:46:05,579
reports are he saw an inverted V with

1111
00:46:11,329 --> 00:46:08,099
three bars and later that became the

1112
00:46:13,130 --> 00:46:11,339
umbrella assemble which was a decoy to

1113
00:46:16,370 --> 00:46:13,140
see the line about it

1114
00:46:20,210 --> 00:46:16,380
so this happened on the 24th of April

1115
00:46:22,010 --> 00:46:20,220
64. and heinek was there and did you say

1116
00:46:25,849 --> 00:46:22,020
Ray was there also in the just two days

1117
00:46:27,710 --> 00:46:25,859
later invited yeah wow I didn't realize

1118
00:46:30,410 --> 00:46:27,720
it was that over there Dre was living in

1119
00:46:31,670 --> 00:46:30,420
Texas and he drove straight over there

1120
00:46:33,109 --> 00:46:31,680
yeah

1121
00:46:35,030 --> 00:46:33,119
wow

1122
00:46:38,750 --> 00:46:35,040
um I can't remember when speaking to Ray

1123
00:46:41,270 --> 00:46:38,760
if he was able to talk to Lonnie several

1124
00:46:43,790 --> 00:46:41,280
times about this or was he able to

1125
00:46:45,530 --> 00:46:43,800
interview him at all yeah I think the

1126
00:46:47,270 --> 00:46:45,540
one of the most uh impressive things

1127
00:46:49,849 --> 00:46:47,280
that I heard him say about it when he

1128
00:46:52,010 --> 00:46:49,859
spoke to Lonnie Lonnie's daughter was

1129
00:46:54,770 --> 00:46:52,020
was looking to uh

1130
00:46:56,930 --> 00:46:54,780
to read about the story and Lonnie had

1131
00:46:58,609 --> 00:46:56,940
pointed to Rey's book and he said that's

1132
00:47:00,230 --> 00:46:58,619
the one that got it right because there

1133
00:47:01,450 --> 00:47:00,240
are a lot of books written about this

1134
00:47:03,890 --> 00:47:01,460
case

1135
00:47:07,730 --> 00:47:03,900
and so he instructed his daughter to

1136
00:47:11,510 --> 00:47:07,740
read uh Ray Stanford's book yeah Socorro

1137
00:47:12,530 --> 00:47:11,520
sauce were interviewing him when uh I

1138
00:47:15,349 --> 00:47:12,540
think they were kind of getting into

1139
00:47:17,870 --> 00:47:15,359
some good stuff when uh somebody came

1140
00:47:19,490 --> 00:47:17,880
and said that Air Force wants to talk to

1141
00:47:22,190 --> 00:47:19,500
you now or Blue Book wants to talk to

1142
00:47:23,809 --> 00:47:22,200
you now and then he went to that meeting

1143
00:47:26,050 --> 00:47:23,819
then he came out he's like I can't talk

1144
00:47:28,609 --> 00:47:26,060
about anything

1145
00:47:31,670 --> 00:47:28,619
when Ray was there but he talked to

1146
00:47:33,349 --> 00:47:31,680
other officers who said look other

1147
00:47:35,750 --> 00:47:33,359
people were seeing this craft we know

1148
00:47:37,370 --> 00:47:35,760
what Lonnie said We Believe Lonnie we're

1149
00:47:38,569 --> 00:47:37,380
not going to tell anybody if we saw it

1150
00:47:39,589 --> 00:47:38,579
because of the way Lonnie's being

1151
00:47:41,089 --> 00:47:39,599
treated

1152
00:47:43,430 --> 00:47:41,099
hmm

1153
00:47:45,770 --> 00:47:43,440
now that's it's you said you mentioned

1154
00:47:47,569 --> 00:47:45,780
the word flapper one of you did and

1155
00:47:49,670 --> 00:47:47,579
that's kind of what it sounds like you

1156
00:47:52,010 --> 00:47:49,680
know like this was all happening you

1157
00:47:54,650 --> 00:47:52,020
know there at that time and it's a

1158
00:47:56,870 --> 00:47:54,660
strange I've always had

1159
00:48:00,109 --> 00:47:56,880
a thought about a situation like this

1160
00:48:02,450 --> 00:48:00,119
that it's a very strange thing flaps are

1161
00:48:04,609 --> 00:48:02,460
very strange things to begin with but

1162
00:48:06,829 --> 00:48:04,619
like when a certain type of craft is in

1163
00:48:09,290 --> 00:48:06,839
an area and then you keep it's still in

1164
00:48:11,569 --> 00:48:09,300
the area it's still in the area

1165
00:48:14,150 --> 00:48:11,579
um it really makes you wonder

1166
00:48:17,450 --> 00:48:14,160
why you know if they could get wherever

1167
00:48:19,809 --> 00:48:17,460
they are from to hear why would they

1168
00:48:23,990 --> 00:48:19,819
focus on an area

1169
00:48:25,370 --> 00:48:24,000
between 73 and 75 we had a flap and

1170
00:48:27,950 --> 00:48:25,380
they're some of the most interesting

1171
00:48:30,710 --> 00:48:27,960
cases I ever heard of where UFO

1172
00:48:32,809 --> 00:48:30,720
following people home uh they would try

1173
00:48:35,690 --> 00:48:32,819
to mimic the sound of lawnmowers and

1174
00:48:38,690 --> 00:48:35,700
weird things like that and

1175
00:48:41,809 --> 00:48:38,700
lawnmowers

1176
00:48:44,089 --> 00:48:41,819
well as it seems to conform to wherever

1177
00:48:46,970 --> 00:48:44,099
the technology is you had the old Top

1178
00:48:49,370 --> 00:48:46,980
Hat shape back in the day and I don't

1179
00:48:52,430 --> 00:48:49,380
know I think these things can morph it's

1180
00:48:55,550 --> 00:48:52,440
uh you know for all we know there's a

1181
00:48:58,010 --> 00:48:55,560
big craft that can manufacture any shape

1182
00:49:00,950 --> 00:48:58,020
or change any shape just depending on

1183
00:49:03,650 --> 00:49:00,960
where they send it but uh you know the

1184
00:49:04,910 --> 00:49:03,660
the various shapes tell you that it

1185
00:49:06,650 --> 00:49:04,920
doesn't matter what they're shaped like

1186
00:49:08,809 --> 00:49:06,660
they fly on a completely different

1187
00:49:10,910 --> 00:49:08,819
principle and the size of them are so

1188
00:49:13,010 --> 00:49:10,920
small that they must be packed with

1189
00:49:15,050 --> 00:49:13,020
technology Gathering all kinds of data

1190
00:49:16,490 --> 00:49:15,060
but you know they're maybe the size of a

1191
00:49:18,410 --> 00:49:16,500
football or something that's just

1192
00:49:21,050 --> 00:49:18,420
amazing

1193
00:49:23,270 --> 00:49:21,060
yeah it really it really is and you know

1194
00:49:24,589 --> 00:49:23,280
people have said and I'm sure you've

1195
00:49:25,970 --> 00:49:24,599
heard this but people have said that

1196
00:49:27,829 --> 00:49:25,980
they've seen it

1197
00:49:31,569 --> 00:49:27,839
you know I guess you call it shape shift

1198
00:49:34,130 --> 00:49:31,579
they've seen things change shapes

1199
00:49:35,930 --> 00:49:34,140
and uh yeah I mean the whole thing about

1200
00:49:37,430 --> 00:49:35,940
them you know the way they vanish

1201
00:49:39,710 --> 00:49:37,440
they're not always taking off at the

1202
00:49:41,329 --> 00:49:39,720
advantage that's it always you know it's

1203
00:49:44,450 --> 00:49:41,339
always an open question to where are

1204
00:49:47,930 --> 00:49:44,460
these things coming from is it another

1205
00:49:50,510 --> 00:49:47,940
planet is in another dimension you know

1206
00:49:53,510 --> 00:49:50,520
it's it's really bizarre it's what keeps

1207
00:49:56,150 --> 00:49:53,520
me going is this great mystery we've got

1208
00:49:58,670 --> 00:49:56,160
about uh four minutes left and so your

1209
00:50:01,069 --> 00:49:58,680
book is available on Amazon

1210
00:50:03,530 --> 00:50:01,079
um I have the Kindle version Linked In

1211
00:50:06,470 --> 00:50:03,540
the show notes and and uh and the

1212
00:50:08,569 --> 00:50:06,480
YouTube text as well but other some

1213
00:50:11,150 --> 00:50:08,579
other Adventures you two are thinking

1214
00:50:14,750 --> 00:50:11,160
about collaborating on uh together

1215
00:50:17,569 --> 00:50:14,760
whether it's uh uh books or I know you

1216
00:50:22,250 --> 00:50:17,579
you have done you both were on uh was it

1217
00:50:24,050 --> 00:50:22,260
Hangar One is that yeah yeah me too do

1218
00:50:25,849 --> 00:50:24,060
you have anything going on uh in the

1219
00:50:27,530 --> 00:50:25,859
future that you know of we'll be

1220
00:50:30,770 --> 00:50:27,540
speaking of mysteries of space in the

1221
00:50:34,609 --> 00:50:30,780
sky doing a new a new presentation on

1222
00:50:37,130 --> 00:50:34,619
exotic propulsion and fast walkers oh

1223
00:50:40,069 --> 00:50:37,140
excellent and we'll soon be working on

1224
00:50:43,490 --> 00:50:40,079
some another new um presentation about

1225
00:50:44,450 --> 00:50:43,500
uh pilots from White Sands that saw

1226
00:50:47,569 --> 00:50:44,460
things

1227
00:50:49,910 --> 00:50:47,579
oh this is is this going way back

1228
00:50:52,130 --> 00:50:49,920
historically or what is that yes it's

1229
00:50:55,309 --> 00:50:52,140
gonna hopefully correlate with uh

1230
00:50:58,370 --> 00:50:55,319
Socorro and many other some real data

1231
00:51:00,890 --> 00:50:58,380
that's kind of not been out

1232
00:51:04,970 --> 00:51:00,900
that should be fascinating that's great

1233
00:51:06,770 --> 00:51:04,980
so how can uh can someone reach you you

1234
00:51:09,109 --> 00:51:06,780
said you're the UFO guys did I hear you

1235
00:51:11,390 --> 00:51:09,119
say that on Facebook definitely yeah our

1236
00:51:13,730 --> 00:51:11,400
book is called not of this world

1237
00:51:17,809 --> 00:51:13,740
um uh it's a long time now that this

1238
00:51:20,450 --> 00:51:17,819
world the 1964 Sakura UFO landing with

1239
00:51:23,270 --> 00:51:20,460
humanoids but um typing out of this

1240
00:51:25,309 --> 00:51:23,280
world and get there but and we can in

1241
00:51:27,650 --> 00:51:25,319
the United States have signed copies we

1242
00:51:29,930 --> 00:51:27,660
can send out of hard copies you do have

1243
00:51:33,049 --> 00:51:29,940
hard copies yeah yeah I mean I only saw

1244
00:51:37,430 --> 00:51:33,059
it on Amazon and Kindle but you can buy

1245
00:51:39,530 --> 00:51:37,440
it in a in a hard copy book from me

1246
00:51:41,030 --> 00:51:39,540
directly you have an email that you want

1247
00:51:43,609 --> 00:51:41,040
to know I just got it it's just a

1248
00:51:44,930 --> 00:51:43,619
Facebook page yeah over the UFO guys

1249
00:51:47,390 --> 00:51:44,940
yeah Facebook

1250
00:51:49,730 --> 00:51:47,400
excellent Facebook also so you can send

1251
00:51:51,349 --> 00:51:49,740
me a you know message on Facebook but uh

1252
00:51:53,450 --> 00:51:51,359
yeah I'm happy that you know we've

1253
00:51:55,790 --> 00:51:53,460
debated a lot of people about

1254
00:51:57,049 --> 00:51:55,800
the hoaxes and the people and this whole

1255
00:51:59,270 --> 00:51:57,059
case so

1256
00:52:01,250 --> 00:51:59,280
anybody disagrees just do a little

1257
00:52:02,329 --> 00:52:01,260
reading you know come to the table with

1258
00:52:04,069 --> 00:52:02,339
some knowledge

1259
00:52:06,410 --> 00:52:04,079
yeah yeah

1260
00:52:08,270 --> 00:52:06,420
well that's that's true I mean if you

1261
00:52:10,609 --> 00:52:08,280
really look deeply into it you know that

1262
00:52:12,829 --> 00:52:10,619
is that is the problem though and you

1263
00:52:15,589 --> 00:52:12,839
mentioned it earlier is you know when a

1264
00:52:17,690 --> 00:52:15,599
when a debunking is out there

1265
00:52:19,549 --> 00:52:17,700
um when people see it in print or see it

1266
00:52:21,290 --> 00:52:19,559
however they see it

1267
00:52:23,450 --> 00:52:21,300
um you know they they just take for

1268
00:52:24,650 --> 00:52:23,460
granted that that must be true you know

1269
00:52:27,170 --> 00:52:24,660
I mean that's

1270
00:52:29,510 --> 00:52:27,180
that's the problem with uh with hoaxes

1271
00:52:31,609 --> 00:52:29,520
too people can see a hoax and think it's

1272
00:52:33,710 --> 00:52:31,619
true because it's in it's in print

1273
00:52:35,270 --> 00:52:33,720
somewhere you know I mean but anyway

1274
00:52:37,609 --> 00:52:35,280
yeah all you have to do is be a good

1275
00:52:39,710 --> 00:52:37,619
investigator and keep looking right yeah

1276
00:52:41,450 --> 00:52:39,720
yes like we said in the book it's like

1277
00:52:44,150 --> 00:52:41,460
trying to solve a murder investigation

1278
00:52:47,329 --> 00:52:44,160
without going to the site of the murder

1279
00:52:48,890 --> 00:52:47,339
yeah yeah excellent all right guys well

1280
00:52:51,410 --> 00:52:48,900
thank you so much

1281
00:52:54,829 --> 00:52:51,420
thanks a lot all right and I think I'll

1282
00:52:56,990 --> 00:52:54,839
see uh at least one of you at the mufon

1283
00:52:59,390 --> 00:52:57,000
event uh Tony I'll see you out there

1284
00:53:01,790 --> 00:52:59,400
we'll see you there yeah all right okay

1285
00:53:04,430 --> 00:53:01,800
take care thanks guys take care all

1286
00:53:08,870 --> 00:53:04,440
right bye all right everyone so uh

1287
00:53:10,790 --> 00:53:08,880
thanks so much and next week we have uh

1288
00:53:14,030 --> 00:53:10,800
I've been waiting to hear back from

1289
00:53:16,370 --> 00:53:14,040
someone that uh I I can't say their name

1290
00:53:17,990 --> 00:53:16,380
because uh they haven't confirmed yet so

1291
00:53:20,150 --> 00:53:18,000
just if you want to find out who our

1292
00:53:23,630 --> 00:53:20,160
guest is next week all you have to do is

1293
00:53:26,150 --> 00:53:23,640
go to our website podcast ufo.com on the

1294
00:53:27,890 --> 00:53:26,160
sidebar there is a place to put a new

1295
00:53:29,809 --> 00:53:27,900
email address for The Weekly Newsletter

1296
00:53:32,390 --> 00:53:29,819
I promise you won't get spammed it's

1297
00:53:34,670 --> 00:53:32,400
just once a week we send out uh who the

1298
00:53:38,270 --> 00:53:34,680
guest is and who the blog is and thanks

1299
00:53:40,210 --> 00:53:38,280
so much and we'll see you next week and

1300
00:53:46,790 --> 00:53:40,220
remember to keep your eyes to the sky

1301
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:51,460
foreign